NH028 Die zweitgrößte Wurmsammlung der Welt - Silent Extinction

00:00:01: Most people know that earthworms have both sexes in one individual, but in the marine world most of them have separate sexes.

00:00:09: And so if you're a little male worm or a little female worm You have to go and find another one to reproduce which exposes you to predators.

00:00:17: It's not that easy to find a mate.

00:00:20: So the solution that some worms have come up with is they designate some of the segments on their tail as a representative for reproduction.

00:00:28: And so, they'll develop a little sex robot!

00:00:32: It's full of their gametes, eggs or sperm and it develops an ability to

00:00:37: swim.

00:00:54: Todays episode gets a little wiggly in the best possible way.

00:00:59: I'm Heidi and now we are diving into the weird, un-wonderful world of worms.

00:01:04: Specifically, anelids or segmented worms with the curator and head of the Anelida Collection at The Museum Of Nature Hamburg.

00:01:14: It is part of the Leibniz Institute for the Analysis of Biodiversity Change.

00:01:20: So this Curator Head of Anelido Collection on Scientist Is Dr.

00:01:25: Jenna Moore.

00:01:27: She is originally from Canada and currently based in Hamburg.

00:01:31: She's especially interested in the evolution, biodiversity and systematics of marine analytes.

00:01:39: Recently she and her colleagues were awarded almost one million euros to conduct groundbreaking research on analytes or more generally speaking worms In this episode her in-depth knowledge and love for wiggly worms might totally change the way you think about them.

00:01:58: It turns out, worms are anything but ordinary.

00:02:02: they don't just squiggle through the garden soil.

00:02:05: more than half of them are marine worms.

00:02:08: They live in the ocean And have developed such bizarre behaviors & bodies that it could belong to a sci fi romance.

00:02:18: Now you will hear among other things about glowing worms, worm festivals and why some worm species act like full moon-addicted sex robots.

00:02:30: And most important more than ten thousand analyte species are still out there to be discovered!

00:02:37: Just a quick note when I say rainworms i mean earthworms one of those slightly tricky german translations or even in German, Regenwürmer.

00:02:50: We have only a few hundred Annalied specialists in the world so listen closely.

00:02:56: this is an encounter with one of them namely Dr.

00:03:00: Jenna

00:03:01: Moe.

00:03:05: Hi Jenna!

00:03:06: Hey

00:03:08: we are here at the Museum de Natur Hamburg.

00:03:16: Well, the Leibniz Institute is a an

00:03:39: institute that exists in Hamburg and in Bonn.

00:03:43: And there are two research museums, one is the Koenig Museum in Bonne... ...and other is the Museum of Nature-Hamburg which has three parts The Zoology Museum where we're now.. ..the Geology & Paleontology museum.... ....and the Mineralogy Museum.

00:03:59: So right now were sitting at let's say back to house of the zoology museum in Hamburg

00:04:06: And in front of me there is a big table with a lot of worms.

00:04:11: You are an expert on worms, you actually the manager so to say?

00:04:17: The director for the Anelida section.

00:04:19: here

00:04:20: I'm the head of this section, Anelidas.

00:04:23: Anelidas are segmented worms.

00:04:25: So it's not every kind of worm but its' the segmented ones which is earthworms leeches and their relatives marine worms that also segmented worms.

00:04:37: Yeah, so I'm the head of that section and the curator of the collection.

00:04:41: So we have a collection of Segmented Worms That has around thirty five thousand specimen lots which is a jar with one or more specimens inside of it, with the number.

00:04:53: So I see a lot of jars in front me.

00:04:56: you have to imagine they are like small bottles that contain maybe one glass wine of liquid and a worm.

00:05:08: It has an interesting handwritten note on them.

00:05:11: Some of these have red tape.

00:05:13: red tape means it's the first discovered and scientifically described worm.

00:05:19: Is that right?

00:05:20: They're type specimens, so its'the specimen.

00:05:24: an author of a species name used to describe this species.

00:05:28: So they are typespecimens or physical anchor for their names.

00:05:34: Well, in theory every species name should have a specimen that you can refer back to so that You don't have to rely on the written description of a species but rather the actual Individual specimen itself.

00:05:46: So that's what the red tape signifies?

00:05:49: This is very important because it actually where science Is defined In the global south for example and explain when people want To find out what kind of species they have.

00:06:00: then go Back into that kind of description at first.

00:06:03: Worm, is that right?

00:06:05: So all type specimens are a reference for biodiversity.

00:06:08: Say you go out and find the worm And try to identify it but having trouble identifying It The next step would be compare it with worms related To it already named.

00:06:21: You can go back to these specimens Have look at those Those have name attached to them.

00:06:26: That's fixed because they're the type specimen.

00:06:29: Definitely this is that worm And so it's an objective reference for a species.

00:06:35: You compare your new worm to those type specimens and if you still decide that its different then maybe have a new species.

00:06:42: So what I found out while we were talking and preparing for this podcast, that there is a lot of work to be done still in the area of worms.

00:06:51: We all think it's just a rain worm but actually they are many more.

00:06:55: Before you go into that i want to hear funny story from you because once mentioned you got bitten by a worm.

00:07:04: Yes

00:07:05: How does that happen?

00:07:08: Which type of worm does bite?

00:07:11: I have handled a lot of rainworms, but they've never bitten me.

00:07:15: So the good news is that earthworm or rain worms are not going to bite you!

00:07:18: Um...I was collecting in The Seashore in Florida where i was doing my PhD and picked up a worm.

00:07:29: It's part of group with jaws Or teeth Often we'll call them Jaws In this particular group, which are called glycerids or blood worms.

00:07:39: They're actually a little teeth and at the base of each tooth there's a little sack of venom.

00:07:44: so they not only will bite you but also venomous.

00:07:48: And these worms have four teeth that on end their pharynx Which is the throat part of the worm and they can avert those pharynxes in order to strike their prey.

00:08:03: graduate students.

00:08:04: And so I picked up this worm and had it in my hand, and i was looking around for a jar to put it in because I was collecting...and it struck my hand!

00:08:13: It actually penetrated enough that you could feel the venom which is really interesting You know?

00:08:18: Um..it felt like a little bit of bee sting but very short Like....I have felt if from maybe few seconds But im not only person I've ever met thats been bitten by a worm like that.

00:08:31: I don't think it's that common because, you know... ...I know a lot of people who could have been bitten by worms.

00:08:38: That is very funny!

00:08:40: You are talking here about species that kind-of attacked you?

00:08:44: This story came out from the conversation we had with a listener….

00:08:49: …who wants to know why her chickens do not eat compost worms.

00:08:55: We were talking about predators and what kinds of enemies they have.

00:09:00: to which creatures, worms could be an enemy.

00:09:03: and then we came towards that story.

00:09:06: So can you answer the question from a listener why do her chickens not eat compost worms?

00:09:12: As far as I know chickens usually like to eat earthworms so i find this question very confusing.

00:09:20: maybe it's their chickens...I don't know!

00:09:22: It depends on what they are eating.

00:09:25: but I've never really heard of a chicken rejecting a

00:09:29: worm.

00:09:30: Okay, okay maybe we need to do some food therapy with the chicken.

00:09:34: and so you're talking about this one worm that kind of attacked you?

00:09:39: That shows there are different types of worms.

00:09:41: how many worms out there?

00:09:43: for segmented worms analytics There's around twenty two thousand species described.

00:09:50: of those more than half are in the ocean, or marine worms.

00:09:55: And then the rest are earthworms and leeches which is one that people generally know about.

00:10:01: but when I say worms i mean anilid worms.

00:10:04: they're much more diverse than oceans.

00:10:10: So how many do we know?

00:10:13: What's our estimate on this?

00:10:19: Of segmented worms, including the marine ones and leeches in earthworms there's around twenty-two thousand.

00:10:25: of those about twelve thousand are uh...marine worms.

00:10:29: then rest our Earthworms & Leeches And theres an estimated.

00:10:34: I mean we have at least ten thousands species left to describe but possibly more than that.

00:10:40: The problem is it very difficult estimate biodiversity especially on oceans.

00:10:46: This collection here in Hamburg is important because it's one of the biggest collections in the world.

00:10:53: The largest they say, is in the Smithsonian where you have worked as well?

00:10:57: Is that right?

00:10:58: Yes I visited this Smithsonian twice as a student and our collection In total numbers of specimens are not the biggest in the World but is the second largest type collection of worms.

00:11:10: So these types specimens that have red labels and represent species, we have as far I can tell the second-largest type collection in the world.

00:11:19: And reason for this very first curator was a guy called Michael Wilson.

00:11:26: He really liked earthworms.

00:11:28: he described more species than anyone else in history.

00:11:33: That's why we had such huge type collections And then from the sixties until the nineties, we had a lady who was curating the collection called Gaysa Hartman Schroeder and she described more polychaete species or marine antelid species.

00:11:50: Marine antelids is the marine worms?

00:11:52: Marine

00:11:52: worms yeah!

00:11:53: Then anyone else in history as far as we can tell.

00:11:56: so two of the most prolific taxonomists are people who describe species were curators of this collection.

00:12:05: So it's a very, very important collection as scientific reference.

00:12:09: let say for other taxonomists

00:12:12: To talk about marine worms briefly we have picture in front us on the wall which shows some marine worms and to me they are mixture of jellyfish snail and butterfly.

00:12:24: that kind of exists underwater.

00:12:26: They're very bizarre optics doesn't look like simple worm at all And this is kind of your field of study.

00:12:36: Can you explain this a little bit more?

00:12:38: Yeah, so I'm a specialist on marine worms and in particular group called ketopterids which are also called parchment tubeworms sometimes... ...and on iNaturalist they think their'e called fairy-tubeworms Which I quite like!

00:12:54: These are very interesting because the bodies have their segments grouped into different parts of their body, like a crab or a shrimp.

00:13:04: Or an insect.

00:13:05: that's the one often kids will learn about in school.

00:13:09: is they have the head thorax and abdomen.

00:13:11: so these worms have this similar separation of segments into different regions of their bodies And So They're very strange looking.

00:13:20: I think What i'm most interested In terms Of Research Is The Evolution Of Body Plans & Analysts.

00:13:29: Marine worms have a lot of different structures and different, you know body plans formats.

00:13:37: Different kinds of segmentation And a lot Of different functions for these parts of their bodies?

00:13:43: What I find very interesting is how did they come to look like this?

00:13:46: what are They doing with These parts?

00:13:49: How Did evolution play A role in driving them To Look a certain way or another Way In Their specialization For different Functional roles in the environment?

00:13:57: Things Like that.

00:13:58: And you also mentioned that when you cut them at one part or divide into three, each part can individually regrow.

00:14:09: So yeah this particular genus of worms is called ketopteris and they're very good at regenerating.

00:14:16: not all worms can regenerate though it's actually a myth.

00:14:19: so its most common to be able to regenerate your tail.

00:14:23: It slightly lifts.

00:14:24: Well, I would say much less common to be able to regenerate your head.

00:14:28: And these worms are so good at it that you can take a single segment out of the middle their body.

00:14:33: That segment will grow ahead and tail.

00:14:36: Then front part will grow its tail back and then back part will go its head-back.

00:14:40: So we get three worms from one division in this worm

00:14:49: If humans were able do that.

00:14:52: You know a lot about worms and you managed to win very significant award.

00:14:58: The year-overm, it's a grant where you got about one million euros for your research.

00:15:06: Can you just briefly talk about how you got there?

00:15:09: And what drove your vision?

00:15:13: why did you want to do that?

00:15:15: So the Euro one project is a collaboration between my Institute several people at my institute and The Sankenberg Museum in Frankfurt, And the University of Göttingen.

00:15:28: so it's a very exciting time right now In Germany because there are lots Of People who Study Worms in Germany.

00:15:37: My colleagues At these different Institutes I came up with this Project basically re-evaluate the European fauna.

00:15:47: Because just for some background, when I was a graduate student in Florida and it's very difficult thinking about taxonomy or species names to understand what is going on with Europe The reason why this context is important is that this is where taxonomy started.

00:16:04: It started in Sweden with Linnaeus And so the first fauna to be described as in Europe and that includes marine species of Europe.

00:16:12: And so the problem when you're not working in Europe is if you don't know the European fauna, and your'e not sure about these old names which maybe have incomplete descriptions or they didn't have drawings.

00:16:27: then there were certainly no photographs on those days.

00:16:31: often the description of this species can be very vague.

00:16:35: it's not always easy to find type specimens.

00:16:38: also what you have is a little bit of a bottleneck in taxonomy, where you can't describe new species because you're not sure if it's new.

00:16:47: Because You Can't Access the Reference Material In Europe.

00:16:49: and so It's A Little Bit Of A Problem.

00:16:52: And

00:16:52: this Is Already A Problem In Florida In The United States Where You Would Assume There Is A Lot Of Collective Work Going On.

00:17:01: What About The Global South?

00:17:03: Must Be Even Harder To Name New Species There If You.

00:17:09: It's

00:17:09: difficult without a good description of the European species.

00:17:13: And it is not that the old taxonomists didn't try, but they lacked global context.

00:17:18: so if something in Europe looks very similar to Brazil then unless you can go back and look at their original species You cannot necessarily say its new species or not.

00:17:29: The goal for this project opening up the European species information by sequencing, we're going to do genomic sequencing.

00:17:41: By recharacterizing the species morphology and by making those data in those collections available for people to borrow on loan because this is another thing that we do in collections.

00:17:53: as if somebody has a research question they want to study some specimens We can send those specimens away online.

00:17:59: so The hope kind of remove some of the barriers to taxonomy worldwide.

00:18:06: And in the meantime, we'll have a lot of interesting research questions that come out for our own groups and things like that.

00:18:12: so...

00:18:13: You're saying a lot people study worms in Germany at the moment.

00:18:17: We have to take that word a lot into context.

00:18:20: relatively

00:18:20: because

00:18:22: Because you mentioned that you go to a conference every three years?

00:18:26: There are about two hundred people.

00:18:29: basically means there are two hundred experts on worms globally.

00:18:33: It's hard to say exactly how many they're, but roughly I would say so

00:18:38: what i wanted to say is you have roughly two hundred or maybe three hundred and may be four hundred uh people who were experts in worms And then you have thousands of worms that haven't been described yet.

00:18:49: So there seems a lot work needs done.

00:18:52: Yeah, just for context this conference is specifically about marine worms.

00:18:58: So if you say that most of the ten thousand plus species to be described are marine worms those people who will do it?

00:19:06: I think two hundred is an upper estimate on how many people go into these conferences!

00:19:12: The next one by the way was this summer in Frankfurt.

00:19:15: so yeah...the problem is there aren't a lot of people who devote their life studying worms.

00:19:22: It's just how it is.

00:19:24: They're not an animal that you immediately think of as charming or interesting in any way, but they are very interesting.

00:19:31: I think and again I'm biased

00:19:34: We get to those stories what could be officially considered as interesting.

00:19:40: So, worms have what you call toenails.

00:19:43: That's when they scratch over a piece of paper or feel it when gently pet them.

00:19:51: They don't have eyes but can differentiate between dark and bright And they do not have ears.

00:19:56: But some species might be able to hear in the sense that they could feel vibration.

00:20:02: Can you tell us more about what is interesting?

00:20:07: So by toenails, it's a little bit of a joke that I have with myself.

00:20:14: So marine worms have structures called parapodia and that just means side feet.

00:20:20: That is all they mean.

00:20:22: And on those feet They have spines.

00:20:25: Those are called kitty which we call them polykeets or historically have been called polykeet Which has many spines In contrast to earthworms which are oligokites, which is few spines because you can't see them.

00:20:43: You can feel the spines on an earthworm but you can see them in marine worms.

00:20:48: that's why they're called polykeets and those structures.

00:20:56: There's a lot of modifications they do to those spines.

00:20:58: Some of the marine worms have really interesting elaborations on these spines, some of them incorporate metals and are made out of calcium carbonate or silicate material.

00:21:12: there is lots different things with just the spines.

00:21:15: These are very specific things.

00:21:16: but in more general terms the worms has five hearts.

00:21:21: Is that right?

00:21:23: Can you say it this way?

00:21:25: To go back to the first question, what's interesting about worms is how many different kinds there are really.

00:21:30: There's a lot of diversity in their bodies work and how they're arranged.

00:21:34: things like that.

00:21:35: The way we think our heart isn't the same thing as an earthworm.

00:21:40: So all segmented worms have a repetition on some degree of structures along your body axis.

00:21:47: so if you say an earth worm has five hearts it means because in five segments circulatory system.

00:21:56: Because that's what a heart is in the worm, yeah?

00:21:59: So it's difficult to talk about worms I think because they're so very different from us!

00:22:05: We'll apply these words like Heart or we will apply like toenails for example but its just...its a proxy and alot of cases..I mean The Heart doing what A Heart does its pumping blood through the body.

00:22:18: If you look at how an earthworm moves, You can see a peristaltic wave go through the body.

00:22:23: So they're compressing their segments and expanding their segments.

00:22:26: This does alot of blood pumping though a worm.

00:22:29: I'm just wondering because maybe the museum will be relocated into a new location.

00:22:37: And I talked to one of the people in charge of their process and she said that maybe they're gonna put a huge worm there just for peoples so it can walk through a worm.

00:22:50: So such a worm, what would you look like?

00:22:54: Would be seeing six hearts or if you walked with a worm What do you think about this worm?

00:23:01: Well If we were walking around an earthworm And let's say, just for argument sake that it is cut in a section so you can actually see what's around and not walking through the gut which would be very boring because there will have to from beginning into end.

00:23:17: You'd see different chambers of segments.

00:23:22: they are bound by barriers between them those little spines that I talked about.

00:23:30: You would have the gut running through the middle, you'd have a nerve cord running to the bottom.

00:23:35: so on the floor there will be what is in our back but it's the nerve cord and at top we'll have circulatory system over your head.

00:23:45: On each side of the worm you could have your little groups of spines and excretory organs or kidney maybe interesting little nephridias, what they call them.

00:24:00: And you can actually see... So

00:24:02: they are pee or how does that kidney work?

00:24:05: Yeah!

00:24:06: They pee but they pee like all over their bodies

00:24:09: so they have a lot of kidneys all over.

00:24:12: But it's the way of regulating fluid and also getting rid of waste.

00:24:18: Okay okay would you see some kind of eyes or ears or there will be nothing.

00:24:24: How does that to work?

00:24:26: Ears, you would not see.

00:24:28: So the sense of hearing is a sense of vibration.

00:24:33: so worms don't have ears The way that we have ears but

00:24:37: they can sense vibration.

00:24:39: They can sense vibrations certainly But they don't Have ears like We have ears and all.

00:24:45: they are complicated systems that detect vibration.

00:24:49: And if you dig right into your ear and have a look, there's little membrane that vibrates when the vibration passes over it.

00:24:55: so its transmitting that vibration as a sound to your ear.

00:25:00: In worms they have alot of those membranes because their essentially a bag of fluids.

00:25:05: They can sense vibrations almost anywhere on thier body Because they are mostly that

00:25:12: Yeah!

00:25:12: So this sense of vibration?

00:25:15: I have to pick up a funny story you told me earlier about the festival, which exists because of that sense of vibration.

00:25:23: Tell us more!

00:25:26: I kind of recommend.

00:25:27: everyone lives in Florida for a while because all the stories are true.

00:25:31: It turns out that there's a festival called the Sop Choppy Worm Granting Festival.

00:25:36: So, Sop choppy is the name of town on worm granting.

00:25:39: Granting means a kind of noise you make when you scratch an iron file or wooden block.

00:25:48: so

00:25:50: yeah.

00:25:50: and so The reason this festival started was people in this town had a business, or still have collecting worms for fishing.

00:26:01: So baitworms and they're all earthworms.

00:26:04: And to do this They drive a wooden stake into the ground and they take piece of flat metal Which is actually the steel spring from a truck.

00:26:12: it's these flat springs that they use in trucks I don't know but they turn this into a little file and they grind it over the top of the wooden stake, And it creates vibrations that penetrate in to ground.

00:26:24: The people who are really good at these shakes the ground like you can feel yourself too!

00:26:29: It's not a subtle thing... ...and the worms there come up out of the ground in response to this vibration so clearly they can sense this vibration which is as good as hearing.

00:26:42: So then just pick-up the worm from surface.

00:26:44: They don't have to dig pick them up this way.

00:26:47: So now there's a festival every single year in April called the Stop Choppy Warm Grunting Festival and I went three times, i think it was really fun.

00:26:58: This sounds so cool.

00:27:00: It just reminds me of the wormbox I had.

00:27:02: and one day there came some workers to do some big work on their house, they used some vibration machinery And during that same time all my worms escaped from a worm box which really freaked me out back then.

00:27:18: but after talking with you i assumed it was the reason I took the box and threw it into a garden because felt so full of worms.

00:27:28: And knew there was something wrong, that didn't like anymore.

00:27:30: but back then i couldn't figure out what.

00:27:32: now...now..i cannot know.

00:27:35: There's couple reasons why a worm would escape from a worm bin.

00:27:39: Yeah, no the other

00:27:47: things were just as normal.

00:27:50: But yeah maybe it was something else you never know but for me that Worm boxes.

00:28:00: Can you briefly talk about them?

00:28:01: We will put a link into the show notes where listeners can see the details of how to make their own worm composting box, what's the advantage of it?

00:28:12: why should everybody have one and What is your experience with it?

00:28:17: I think i've had a worm bin since two thousand eleven or so in different ones In different places that ive lived.

00:28:26: They're very convenient because they don't smell.

00:28:29: the worms process your vegetable scraps from your cooking and things like that.

00:28:34: You can put everything in there but you can put most things.

00:28:38: I would say, And then you have a box full of worm.

00:28:42: friends that eat your garbage.

00:28:44: so...and then you get really good compost out of it as well!

00:28:48: It is very very good for your plants.

00:28:50: I've always had a little worm bin.

00:28:52: Even when i lived in a tiny one room apartment as a graduate student, I had one under my kitchen sink.

00:28:58: so

00:28:58: everybody can have one no excuses.

00:29:01: and uh...I think their best advantage is really you have perfect compost for your flowers and plants, little vegetables you want to grow wherever.

00:29:11: The other thing I found really fascinating is... You told that story during a public talk at the museum here which happened where i kind of got to know you.

00:29:23: this kind of love party happens on full moon.

00:29:31: Yeah, yeah.

00:29:34: So again we're talking about marine worms which I'm very fond of.

00:29:40: so one Of the problems that happens when you are a worm That lives on say coral reef.

00:29:46: it's quite A big area and a big environment.

00:29:49: And your tiny little worm

00:29:51: You mean The ocean?

00:29:52: The Ocean!

00:29:53: So everybody or most people know Earthworms tend to be hermaphrodites Which means they have both sexes in One individual.

00:30:01: But in the marine world, most of them have separate sexes.

00:30:05: So there's male worms and female worms in oceans.

00:30:08: And so if you're a little male worm on the bottom of the ocean floor or a little female worm You have to go find another one In order to reproduce which is difficult.

00:30:19: It exposes you to predators.

00:30:21: it's not that easy To do...to find a mate.

00:30:24: The solution some worms come up with designate some of the segments on their tail as they're representative for reproduction.

00:30:34: And so, they'll develop a little... you can call it a sex robot maybe?

00:30:40: It's full of their gametes, eggs or sperm and has some eyes that have light sensing organs which he could rightfully called eyes and develops ability to swim.

00:30:52: So at certain time in the moon cycle only

00:30:57: at that time of

00:30:57: the moon cycle.

00:30:58: Yes, and it's very species-specific.

00:30:59: so there is not just one species of worms to do this... And they're

00:31:03: doing each species during a different cycle after Moon?

00:31:08: There might be overlap but generally they tend to not do them in the same time or try not too.

00:31:14: So when light is red then they can sense This little representative breaks off their tail and swims into the surface of

00:31:22: water.

00:31:22: It breaks off its tail

00:31:24: Yeah, and so this is an adult worm that has... This little representative That goes off of it And its just full of eggs and sperm.

00:31:33: It's got some muscles for swimming.

00:31:35: It has eyes!

00:31:35: And thats about it.

00:31:37: I mean these things.

00:31:38: They don't think really You get- they're very strange Little creatures.

00:31:43: So what do they go up to the surface Of water?

00:31:45: Then they explode.

00:31:48: The reason you are taking the volume Whatever depth they came from, and you're reducing it to the very surface of water.

00:31:57: So that makes chances for successfully reproducing much higher because fertilization happens in a water column so their eggs and sperm have to meet in the water.

00:32:10: Some species turns into this little robot.

00:32:16: It varies alot but strategy is Basically make the chances of reproduction higher in various ways.

00:32:23: so and some worms And especially actually in Germany you could see a worm that The whole worm turns into this thing, and they're very large.

00:32:32: In Germany?

00:32:32: Yes Where

00:32:33: like in the ocean?

00:32:34: yeah.

00:32:34: in the Ocean okay Yeah.

00:32:36: in the North Sea You can See This.

00:32:37: This Creature That Does This.

00:32:39: They only do it at night right

00:32:41: but they are attracted to light.

00:32:42: So if you were out on Near the ocean like on a dock or something where you could access deeper water.

00:32:48: You can probably shine a light and see some of these strange animals.

00:32:56: I find that so bizarre.

00:32:59: That's amazing.

00:33:00: Yeah, i mean It's pretty smart if we think about it.

00:33:04: not they thought They didn't dream this up themselves.

00:33:06: evolution did for them.

00:33:08: but Yeah, it's clever.

00:33:09: It is a clever solution to the problem

00:33:11: for small creature like a worm.

00:33:15: and so this kind of shows how their sense of light guides them.

00:33:21: And not just sense or light.

00:33:22: they know what cycle of the moon is right for them that different type of sense I would say

00:33:28: yeah i mean They are really thinking about it.

00:33:32: its more an instinct.

00:33:33: most humans don't know whats cycle in at moment.

00:33:36: So How does a Worm Know?

00:33:38: Well, it's the same way.

00:33:39: you know roughly what time is.

00:33:41: You have a light rhythm and if that changes in certain ways then they start to think maybe its time throw their robot out.

00:33:49: Just do our love party!

00:33:50: Yeah exactly so... It isn't like sitting around thinking about it.. Its an instinct thing.

00:33:56: Yeah

00:33:57: sure I guess they don't-.

00:33:59: Did i have brain?

00:34:00: Yea they had brains.

00:34:03: How would u describe your brain?

00:34:04: when walking into them?

00:34:06: What would u see?

00:34:08: You would see a wider part of the nerve cord basically.

00:34:13: I mean, brain is just... ...a whole bunch of nerves together right?

00:34:16: So it's kind of same deal in worms.

00:34:19: they do have a brain and It isn't their head conveniently.

00:34:23: so yeah

00:34:24: Okay, so its not just that kind of nerve cords you see on the floor.

00:34:28: No at the front you'll see

00:34:30: A bigger bunch of

00:34:32: Yeah proper brain.

00:34:34: let say

00:34:35: Maybe tell us some more about your favorite worm and why it is a favorite.

00:34:42: Hmm,

00:34:43: I think my favorite one was this ketopterist the fairy tube worm.

00:34:48: Well they're very interesting.

00:34:49: They have these strange bodies Their bioluminescent.

00:34:53: all of them

00:34:54: not all of him Some of them.

00:34:56: It means they create their own light.

00:34:59: Yeah, it's a blue kind of late And it's not necessarily at night, they'll do it whenever its dark or you can see when it is dark.

00:35:06: Does the shine all of a time?

00:35:08: Or only if something

00:35:10: gets attacked or disturbed somehow?

00:35:12: Yep So thats interesting.

00:35:15: but they live in tubes Well usually buried in sediments sometimes in holes and rocks.

00:35:23: so Its weird that there are bioluminescent because theres one worm on tube.

00:35:27: They glow

00:35:29: In the tube.

00:35:31: Within the tube, yes?

00:35:32: Nobody sees it.

00:35:33: Theoretically not.

00:35:34: but one thing that happens to them with some frequency is a fish will come by and eat their head because they'll be sitting in there tube And then the ends kind of stick up out of the sediment surface.

00:35:44: Then if fish comes by an eats their head and you can find them when you collect them sometimes regrowing their heads

00:35:49: Okay.

00:35:50: So doesn't really matter anyway Because they can regrow their head.

00:35:53: right

00:35:54: I mean its Probably inconvenient for them, but they can yes.

00:35:57: They can grow their head

00:35:59: okay and you think that the kind of light a kind of Produce could be to tell fishes not to eat them.

00:36:08: or yeah our surprise fishes.

00:36:09: That's usually what bioluminescence is used for in the ocean as uh Kind of a warning signal.

00:36:15: A lot of deep water.

00:36:16: Or animals are bioluminous because when a predator attacks them then?

00:36:25: Right?

00:36:25: Or it surprises the predator.

00:36:28: So, yeah I think its related to that.

00:36:30: The other thing is they have Other animals living in their tubes sometimes Like little crabs and other worms And things like.

00:36:37: so It might be when those bother them They do a little bioluminescence...I don't know.

00:36:45: still a lot of stuff to be discovered.

00:36:47: Yeah, in regards to being discovered if there is young person wondering what they should study and for some reason are interested in worms how do you get them?

00:37:01: What's the scientific path?

00:37:04: If you wanted research worms then you would study zoology first of all invertebrate zoologies as important.

00:37:13: So my path was, I studied zoology in My Bachelors and then... ...I was working at a museum for some years.

00:37:21: And then i did my PhD directly which you can do in the US In Zoology also.

00:37:26: You were focused on worms already or?

00:37:28: Or are doing other stuff in your PhD ?

00:37:32: I did my Phd On Worms.

00:37:33: Yeah It Was Focused On Wworms.

00:37:35: But The Reason I Got Into WormS Is I Did Some Field Work In A Little Island That's Next To Tahiti Called Mareha And this is the tropics, it's very beautiful.

00:37:45: It's coral reefs and things like that... ...and I happened to be in one of the years what was called a bio-code project.

00:37:52: The Maria Bio-Code Project!

00:37:54: And the goal for those projects were basically to characterize all species on one island.. ..and its small enough island where they seemed not impossible let us say.

00:38:06: It was very ambitious but yeah.

00:38:08: so we did multiple years of sampling on these islands And I happened to be there one of the times, well it was the worm year.

00:38:17: It's the...the year when all the antelid experts were there and so i thought i knew more or less the diversity of antelod worms before that.

00:38:26: but i did not-I mean i saw really cool species because the experts where they're collecting them from places you wouldn't think to find a worm like in between sand grains on sponges.

00:38:41: That was the year I got hooked on worms, and that's just before i started my PhD.

00:38:46: So at that time I was interested in marine invertebrates but hadn't picked a group yet.

00:38:51: so I've worked on sea stars.

00:38:53: I have worked on crabs and various other tina fours which are comb jellies.

00:38:58: But worms were yeah...the most interesting to me.

00:39:02: And if somebody wants help you identifying new species of worms they would go into taxonomy is it right?

00:39:10: Yeah, or I guess they would have to study taxonomy on some level.

00:39:16: Taxonomy is the practice of naming and describing species.

00:39:22: so there are a couple different ways you can do taxonomy.

00:39:25: one is by studying their morphology what something looks like in describing the different structures.

00:39:31: this is really important and it takes a lot of time to develop that skill.

00:39:35: The other thing genetic sequencing, because it reduces the time that takes to distinguish species and gives you another line of evidence.

00:39:46: So for somebody who's interested in describing worm species they should learn both!

00:39:52: And what takes most time I think is learning how to identify different parts of a worm and be able to describe them in ways other specialists will understand AND getting to know their group—that takes the most.

00:40:06: Yeah, just learning the groups is very difficult.

00:40:09: When somebody looks up The Year One project online there's also a talk about genetic sequencing and how that has changed How we perceive worms over the last fifteen years.

00:40:21: Can you briefly summarize what so exciting about this change?

00:40:25: And why it plays such a big role in the project You're doing now?

00:40:30: Yes So when people were relying only on What worms looked like to tell species apart.

00:40:37: There was a, let's say habit over about one hundred years where people had all these descriptions of species from Europe which were not complete.

00:40:47: because you don't have a lot reference material.

00:40:49: if there is only a handful of species form one genus in Europe then your going compare them with each other and it doesn't help necessarily when you go outside of Europe.

00:40:58: And so what happened?

00:40:59: People started collecting specimens applying these European names to them because they were all in the ocean.

00:41:08: And when you don't know better, You could think that every place on the ocean is connected To every other place in the Ocean Because These marine worms have larval stages That swim In The Water Column.

00:41:20: So it may well be They're all connected.

00:41:22: That's

00:41:22: Swim In The water column.

00:41:24: What do you mean by that?

00:41:25: They are plankton.

00:41:26: A water column means On a water surface

00:41:29: Not necessarily on the surface But the whole Column of water

00:41:32: Okay I see means the entire ocean.

00:41:35: Yeah, so you know if you are not sure then it makes sense that say a species from Spain could be the same as a species in Madagascar because of...the whole ocean is full of water.

00:41:48: eventually they can get around and connect to these places.

00:41:51: And this was kind an assumption for long time.

00:41:54: is that worm larvae lived for a long time As plankton?

00:41:58: They were traveling all over the world distributed globally.

00:42:04: And so people went with this and they said okay well, this thing in Antarctica is the same as this thing In Europe?

00:42:10: They were applying these names all over the place.

00:42:14: I don't think that's necessarily a bad assumption.

00:42:17: It was just best to do it within information we had at the time.

00:42:20: So then around two thousand People started sequencing routinely worm species.

00:42:26: Very quickly discovered there are alot more species All over the world was reflected by the number of names that were applied to these species.

00:42:36: So in fact, something in Australia is not the same usually as something in Europe unless it was transported there by people and so... There are a handful of actually globally distributed worms but its very rare And part of this issue we have now In worm taxonomy is sorting out what's real with all those names that where applied everywhere.

00:43:02: So I think actually the estimate of ten thousand species left to be described is quite low.

00:43:07: I would guess that it's more, yeah

00:43:11: Your path as a worm specialist Is very interesting also in regards To the fact that Canada where you come from has only two species of worms In

00:43:24: Ontario.

00:43:25: Yes, in the centre of Canada and last time you told me it's because of the ice age that killed all other species probably.

00:43:34: So I'm just throwing up this comment in regards to maybe young people who are listening.

00:43:41: How do you find my studies?

00:43:43: Sometimes when we come from a place where there's almost no worms, how would end as an expert on thousands and thousands of verms... Is something going back into your childhood that fascinated about little critters or is there some relinkment?

00:44:01: but it happened somehow.

00:44:04: So yeah, I'm from farmland in Ontario Canada.

00:44:07: Ontario is landlocked.

00:44:08: it's nowhere near an ocean.

00:44:11: In Ontario there are two native species of earthworms.

00:44:14: They're now invasive species also or introduced species but natively There only two species of Earthworm and this because the glaciers wiped them out Because its hard to be an earthworm under a huge block of ice.

00:44:27: Um, I definitely did not think i would become a worm curator when I was a child.

00:44:33: That is for sure.

00:44:35: It wasn't even sure that I would become A Worm Curator like it said a bachelor student.

00:44:41: But I think what happened to me whether you want To do this or You Want to avoid?

00:44:45: Is that I found something that I'm really interested in and Something that I Think has its own importance?

00:44:55: Whether it Has global objective importance is up to others, but for me describing biodiversity understanding how it's evolved and especially in groups that are neglected by most scientists or people.

00:45:13: That to me is important.

00:45:15: I like rooting for the underdog, so it's a little bit of a personality thing but also yeah...I like underappreciated animals and i think i've always been that way actually thinking back to when i was a kid..i always liked the weird kitten and you know like the neglected animals.

00:45:34: You say its for others to decide?

00:45:37: Everybody knows that honeybees are crucial For our survival as humans, rainworms have also a very central task in how the world works.

00:45:52: What makes them so important?

00:45:54: Earthworms in particular are extremely important to agriculture.

00:45:57: I'm sorry, keep saying rainworms.

00:45:59: No it's a direct translation but yeah rain worms or earthworm.

00:46:04: so they aerate the soils.

00:46:05: They contribute to loosening them.

00:46:08: So they don't become compacted which is a major issue in Agriculture?

00:46:12: They bring nutrients down from the surface Down deeper and the soils where the plant groups can access them.

00:46:17: they do a lot of decomposition Of organic material into accessible nutrients for plants.

00:46:25: So they're just as important as honeybees to agriculture, I would argue.

00:46:29: but the honey bees have a better PR team and we see them more often.

00:46:33: i think...I

00:46:34: think you are an amazing PR team for um earthworms!

00:46:38: Just put it out there.

00:46:39: yeah they're important animals and in fact I have a little bit of hesitation to say that this animal is more important than another animal because Every animal and every plant in every organism has a role.

00:46:53: And whether or not they're important to humans directly is not that important...to me, let's say!

00:47:00: I mean you know They may be important as something else That's important to human we don't no..and i think putting a judgment on Whether an animals worthy of study?I mean Of course As A worm scientist I get a lot of questions like why would You do this?

00:47:15: Why Is it Important?

00:47:16: but this is not something someone would ask someone studying pandas.

00:47:21: So it's a little bit strange to me and I've thought about this question a lot because every species has its importance, whether we know anything or recognize that they are all important.

00:47:36: so i think to judge the neglected animals too.

00:47:40: Well I think quite a few people agree with you, um i think this mega trend of only looking at charismatic megafauna which apanda is... This trend is kind of old now and people start to realize that we need to look at little critters not so obvious ones because thats what holds the ecosystem together.

00:48:03: So uh..I think you just answered question why your field is important.

00:48:07: thankyou even though you didn't want to do that.

00:48:10: No, I think it is!

00:48:12: Yeah yeah.

00:48:14: as a final question coming back to your award which again congratulations It's always great achievement To get something like That?

00:48:24: What's the gold for their next?

00:48:27: How long does this money last and what's the goal For how Long are You gonna work on that Euro Worm project?

00:48:34: The Project has three years so That's about the duration of work on it, although there are always things to do at end.

00:48:42: I'm really excited because this is a really amazing group of people that collaborated with me in this project.

00:48:50: There were worm experts and genomics experts and bioinformatics experts.

00:48:55: Well...there're several goals for our team.

00:48:58: My personal goal for the project was opening up biodiversity information.

00:49:05: we can work towards solving this taxonomic problem, because as you correctly pointed out if you have let's say a couple hundred people who are interested in worm taxonomy and tens of thousands species to describe at least more than ten thousand that is alot of work to do.

00:49:22: And the easier you make it and the more accessible you could make biodiversity information The more you're empowering people who don't live in Europe, Who do not have access to European collections necessarily or Don't have the funding To travel here.

00:49:35: The more You can give them and empower Them to describe their own faunas ,the More things move forward.

00:49:42: So for me that's my personal most important goal of the project We are also planning to study a lot about Worm Evolution so we will probably make some really interesting discoveries About That!

00:49:55: excited about it and very grateful for this chance.

00:49:59: I think, This is a wonderful last sentence!

00:50:02: I wish you good luck with the entire process And thank you so much

00:50:06: Thank You.